Some things i'd like to review

[mudboy]

We need to know whats legal and what is not out there. I'm not a law maker. I have no problem helping people follow the law but the law has to be written. This is where the trail system will come into play. Last night there was an individual there that believed trails on topography maps are legal. I know alot of people believe that, I used to as well. I know some people in the upper ranks do not believe this. In order for anything to work we ALL must be on the same page. Wharton staff, State Park Police, ourselves must all familiarize ourselves on what is legal and what is not. The days of State Park Police using their "judgment" as to what is a trail and what is not, must come to an end. The days of hunters and jeepers using their own judgment must come to an end. In order for laws to be properly enforced and be willing to stand through court the law must be written. So to sum it up need a commonly available map agreed on among all of us.
Secondly. I understand the super of Wharton is working on what I mentioned above, at least the map portion. This is great and I greatly appreciate the efforts, however I have some questioning what qualifies as a trail that won't go onto the map. I really hope some time and unbiased thinking is going into this. If a trail can be transversed without impacting the ecosystem, i believe it should be on there. If the trail is only 5 feet wide due to overhanging branches I do not believe that is a good enough justification for trail closure. If a trail is known to be difficult to transverse and cannot be unless you have a modified vehicle I do not believe this is a logical justification. Fact is, that we are going off of the pavement and some areas are not going to accessible by minivan or maybe even a stock 4 wheel drive. I just hope that we are included within this project at some point. To sum it up, A map is being made as we speak and we need to be able to give some input.

Please take these suggestions as they are. They are only my opinions. I do not believe that you must agree or disagree, however comments from every individual who reads this will be greatly appreciated.

[russ]

I think at this stage there are two things a person could do. 1. Wait and see what Rob Auermueller's proposed access plan looks like, then request changes, if you think it should be changed. 2. Send Rob a copy of a map showing which road, roads, trails, etc. you would like to stay open, and give your reasons. I should think option #2 is more likely to get you what you want. Remember, the key issue for Rob is that if he allows a road or trail to be included in the access plan, then he is responsible for maintaining it. At some point, his access plan will become the official plan, and I think it will be a lot harder to get changes after that point.

[HamiltonLJ]

I agree with both of you!! I will not support any trail being closed just because a Honda can't drive down it! Or because a Ford Excursion can't fit! I happen to like my Pine Barrens pinstripes! It took a long time to get them just right ;D

[mudboy]

I will start working on a google map. This will be interesting. I'm going to try to do this rather quickly so the lines may not be EXACTLY on the trails but it will at least get the idea across. I will post the link up here and let yall review it. I'm hesitant on how this will come out.

[mudboy]

I worked on a majority of the western side of 206. Two things that may be sticky issues but have to be looked at.

Powerlines: Who's responsibility is it to enforce what happens on these areas? How much land do they own around the towers?
If you take a look at what I have highlighted you'll notice small trails that lead to some of the towers. These are used by hunters and others quite often as parking spots to access other areas by foot. Hunters, geocachers, mountain bikers and hikers could be affected by these small areas being "off limits".

Dead end trails: I highlighted a bunch of dead end trails due to the fact that these also are used by people as access/ parking for people who go other places by foot.

I think in order for us to be on the same page, Russ and myself or any higher up on the environmental/park end along with myself should ride in the same vehicle and go down these trails. Reason why i pick myself for this is I believe I know the trails on this side of Wharton beyond many others. I may be wrong but I believe I could do a good job with this. Every trail that is on the map so far is accessible by my minivan.
maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&safe=on&msa=0&ll=39.755043,-74.803247&spn=0.015309,0.027509&t=k&z=15&msid=111901079104381183408.000492e3fddb8b07c88f9

updated 3:23PM 10/18/10

[mudboy]

whats up? no one like or dislike my map?

[jeepinjp]

I don`t know the park and whats there,but I would want to see what the super comes back with and why before making a map you may be unable to change as there very well could be trails you may not be aware of,maybe not.
Also to the best of my knowledge any title 39 road is open to class 1 vehicles, of course protected areas,wetlands etc. would impact that.

[russ]

Dave, how many of your trails match up with roads/trails shown on the topo maps? Can you give us a rough idea?

[mudboy]

Oct 26, 2010 7:08:39 GMT -5 russ said:

Dave, how many of your trails match up with roads/trails shown on the topo maps? Can you give us a rough idea?

by the end of today I will answer that in a percentage.

[mudboy]

Oct 25, 2010 21:35:41 GMT -5 jeepinjp said:

I don`t know the park and whats there,but I would want to see what the super comes back with and why before making a map you may be unable to change as there very well could be trails you may not be aware of,maybe not.
Also to the best of my knowledge any title 39 road is open to class 1 vehicles, of course protected areas,wetlands etc. would impact that.

The area I posted a map of is strictly an example. There is not a trail in that area that I haven't been down. Wide , tight, on tiopos, off of topos, not navigational by vehicle. There are alot of trails that may not be on todays topos that are causing absolutely no harm that i would have to say would need approval. I would also like to see a wetlands map to over lay with this as well. I just don't want to see a "official" map made by one person without others insight.

[mudboy]

maps.njpinebarrens.com/#lat=39.606746222241476&lng=-74.59476470947265&z=12&type=topo&gpx=
is the topo i'm going to compare it to.

*Edit* I'm almost ready to take my word back, this map has to be dated back to the 50s. My parents road isn't even shown on here. Their house was the first built on the road in 1978. These are almost useless for identifying trails. I BEG for this not to be the basis of what will stay open. If I had to take a guess. under 60% of the trails that exist out there are not on this map compared to what i made up. I'd also have to guess that atleast 20% of what is on the map doesnt even exist. Add it up the inaccuracy of available topos is about 80%

[russ]

It's probably going to vary depending on the area. In the Preservation Area, where virually no development happens, the topos can be very accurate. In Rural Development Areas, they can be way off. Also, there are a lot of "roads" and "trails" that have become thoroughfares illegally. They started as firebreak plowlines or access roads bulldozed in by firefighters.

I don't think Rob is going to use the topos as the only basis for the access plan for Wharton. I think he will take your suggestions seriously.

Google "roads and wildlife" and you will see why conservationists are concerned about this constantly expaning network.

[yellowdog]

if the topos are still the same as a few years back ..some are fairly recent and some go back to like 1957..this is my issue too...but can you imagine the cost to revamp the topos..

it's hard to believe with al the state budget cuts that they will be revised anytime soon

[medfordpiney]

Topo Maps were created by the US Geological Service.

[mudboy]

Topo maps are mostly worthless. There are a crap load of trails that nevber existed, some that don't exist anymore, some that have severe impact on the ecosystem and some are out there that arent on the map however should be.
There is currently someone working on this project and I just hope that goes well.